[Continuation of a conversation] Plugin Development - Ideas and Comments

From the original thread..... [-link-]

Here's where we took the conversation on, what I still feel, was a constructive tangent... I tried to copy the conversation as efficiently as possible, so people can catch up and constructively add to it, as I think this the type of communication needed around here....







Firstly, this struck a nerve, and I spent some time in my rant phase on this partial brain dump. I probably should have started it elsewhere, but I just got into it. This is one of those threads, I think they wish they could use the new feature of splitting a thread, but I just went off and kept going ...

YOU were someone I thought of when I wrote this, and I kind of feel that you are one of the exceptions to the rule. I STILL see you here quite often, and I do know how you make your plugins available hereas well. You still answer questions on YOUR plugins, and give me valuable feedback, as well as to others I'm sure.



I TOTALLY agree with you here. I have had this conversation in private with people, and planned on making a discussion of it here at some point. Now is as good a time as any I guess You basically said, word of word, what I had mentioned. I also feel a forum at plugins.e107.org would be great. This would organize things better within e107 rather than spread it out. Yes it is two separate forums, but for two separate things. And, as you mentioned, I also felt the there should be individual forums for Each plugin. And each plugin dev should be given 'mod' power over just their particular plugin. Possibly, even the power over just their individual VERSION of that plugin. SO, if someone came along before I got to it, And someone created Chatbox III, the Head mods could decide if this is authentic, and allow them to mod their version on forward.

When I started writing the Chatbox II support thread, I had a box to click so I could be notified of posts to that thread. That is great keeping me informed of questions HERE. I don't see how anyone can get notified beyond the first post though, but I think that should be a feature available to all interested on a particular thread. I may have missed the ability because I honestly never looked.



I have considered offering my services to plugins.e107.org to help set up the forums there. As I agree with what you said. There are even features at e107coders I'd like to see with plugins.e107.org, Such as the bugtracker. Some use that at e107coders, and I still get messages from it, but whereas I do get the replies from the forum post here regarding Chatbox II 1.5+. It works when issues are posted there as well, and is more active.

I thought maybe with the plugins.e107.org's version tracker, it may even auto-create new forums for newly published plugins, and then allow mod status to the author, but I thought better after .

I also thought that it would be nice to create some sort of "Plugin Test Group". Come up with some goofy name, have a few, or a bunch join, and allow them to get their hands on it BEFORE it's actually released. I don't want that to make it so plugins devs would want to release them elsewhere quicker though. Doing this would allow other devs and knowledgeable people to take these plugins, install them, test them, possibly run them through some checks for exploits on all inputs, look for code that sneakily communicates to other sites thats been built into the code, etc..... SO, we wouldn't actually give it a "Security Blessing", but we'd at least have some time to do a cursory check before it's released.




I had written SOME things before, that I released publicly. Most as shareware. I found then how little people want to pay for things, although I did make money with my shareware, unlike here lol. I can relate though, I guess. There are some programs I use rarely. Useful, but I don't put out any $$ for them. It took me 5 years to even make a donation to e107 for what they've done for me. I'm no longer rich, so I try to donate in other ways. Also I haven't made any real money using e107 yet either. Maybe soon...

It seems MANY don't really realize what it takes in time and effort to get things from zero to stable. And if they did, or could, we'd probably see a lot more plugins. I do plan on writing a number of new ones over the next few months. A few, I even plan on writing them step-by-step, explaining my thought process, so that others CANNOT just USE the plugin, they have to create it themselves This may also add some unique and available plugins to our pool.

It's nice to be on both sides though, as a user and a developer, so we understand each ones perspective.



NOOOOOOO, thank YOU. Thanks for all your plugins. You're way ahead of me. I do plan on trying to catch up though

It's good to see communication is still good here. It's been a rough couple weeks here, and I honestly felt snubbed at times from lack of communication and direction here, so I went off and did some thinking. I also looked at alternatives. I also thought about forks. But I then decided to stay, and fight, help, whatever you want to call it. I feel forks divide a valuable asset here, and even though I, or others, might make quick advances, it would hurt in the long run. I think I can do more good here, than anywhere else. I think that is what this past crisis did, looking back. It weeded out the herd somewhat. There was good conversation in spot, if you looked for it, and many reall IN" the community got together to solve the problems

Thank you for the in-depth reply, and showing communication isn't totally dead, and can be civil and constructive for the greater good. Hopefully we can collaborate on some great things here in the future....

Just to add a little more.... I also think a similar action for themes should be taken. THat is, have it's own separate forums at themes.e107.org. It may seem to split things up a bit, but I feel it would be easier to communicate, more efficient overall and it would put all the "experts" and "students" all in one, focused place.

I can't really comment on the plugin situation, as I'll never be a plugin developer. I do agree with the point on themes, though.

I've learned a lot from the themes done by others, particularly Roofdog and the fellas at FS Net, and my own skills have come along nicely from seeing how they do things.

If I'm honest, though, the theme forums on e107.org are just too disjointed to be totally useful. They are good if you want to trawl through the stuff that gets posted in the wrong forums, looking for what you want, but just seem to lack the necessary focus.

Just my twopennarth.

Things do get moved to the correct areas WHEN we spot them, but it's the users who simply can't be bothered to post in the correct place that causes the problems and who lack the focus

I did say stuff gets posted in the wrong forums. The point is, it happens much more often in Themes, it seems, than in, say, the Support forums. There must be a reason for that.

By the way, not everything posted here which doesn't offer gushing praise constitutes an attack on anybody. It's just an opinion.

I always get defensive around here myself. It's hard to hear someones voice inflections, so we tend to hear things in our own voices as we read. Well, at least that's what I think. So, I think I am always mad at myself But sometimes you can read into some negativity the way posts are worded, but again, I notice this can also be location related, and how others talk, or how it's translated. I shouldn't get so defensive knowing that.

But I will preface the rest of this post as not trying to be negative, or feel I am right in my way of thinking, And the following is just my thoughts on what may help, and no way represents the thoughts and views of this station or the parent company.....

I agree that the forum could use a facelift.

I mean, it's like going to the office, and the CEO's desk is in the front, and the Receptionists is in the back.

It works for people that have been around for a while, because they are use to it now, but I remember being a rookie and coming here, and getting a bit lost. I still feel lost on getting info, finding and folowwing some links and I am still not comfortable with the wiki yet, or many wiki's (Old dog, can't learn new tricks). Not an attack, just a suggestion... I think it should be set up with new visitors in mind. Maybe something like;


INTRO SECTION (Member posting only allowed in Showcase and Test section)
- Read Me First!!! (Rules and getting started here)
- Welcome to e107 (e107 info and history)
- e107 Showcase (Member sites using e107)
- Test Forum (Not sure how to post in forums yet, do a test here)

e107 LANGUAGES (If English isn't your primary language, there may be better help)
- Language Info
- e107 Support Sites
- Language Q&A
- Language Lounge

e107 WIKI
- Wiki Info
- Wiki Q&A

e107 GENERAL
- General FAQ
- General Info
- Ask for directions (Ask for help finding e107 themes, plugins, tools, etc)
- General Help Q&A (Can't find the right spot, then ask it here...)
- General Lounge

e107 INSTALLATION
- Installation HOWTO's
- Installation Q&A
- Installation Lounge

e107 UPGRADES
- Upgrade HOWTO's
- Upgrade Q&A
- Upgrade Lounge

e107 SECURITY (If you found something, report it, don't expose it)
- Security FAQ (Locked to members)
- Security Info (Locked to members)
- Security Warnings (Locked to members)
- Security Announcements
- Security Q&A
- Security Tools
- Security lounge

e107 CORE (Active - V.7x)
- Core FAQ
- Core Info
- Core Announcements
- Core Requests
- Core Q&A
- Core Hacks
- Core tools
- Cores Lounge

e107 DEVELOPMENT (V.8x and beyond)
- V.8x FAQ
- V.8 Info
- V.8 Announcements
- V.8 Requests
- V.8 Q&A
- V.8 Hacks
- V.8 tools
- V.8s Lounge

e107 THEMES
- Theme FAQ
- Theme Info
- Theme Announcements
- Theme Requests
- Theme Q&A
- Theme Hacks
- Theme tools
- Themes Lounge (Anything else themes)

e107 PLUGINS
- Plugin FAQ
- Plugin Info
- Plugin Announcements
- Plugin Requests
- Plugin Q&A
- Plugin Hacks
- Plugin Tools
- Plugin Lounge

e107 TRAINING
- Training FAQ
- Training Info
- Security Training
- Theme Training
- Plugin Training
- Misc Training
- Training Tools
- Training Lounge

******** More but hidden to regulars *******

e107 STAFF (Hidden to all but e107 staff)
- Help and Howto's (for new staff)
- Ban List (who got banned and why
- Staff Lounge
- Ideas

******** More but hidden to regulars and staff *******

e107 ADMIN
- ADMIN Lounge
- ADMIN Ideas
- ADMIN - Site TODO
- ADMIN - Site COMPLETED


******** ARCHIVES **************

ARCHIVES
- Seasonal
- E107 ARCHIVES (OLD, BUT SAVED STUFF)

I KNOW people HATE change. Beleive me. But don't kill the idea until you think a little about it, and from a NEW visitors point of view.

Yeah, it's a LONG list, but it's not like there will be 10x more posts, it's just more organized, and easier to decide where to post, and where to find answers. Especially to newbies.

I could be wrong, but even wrong idea's bring about positive changes. I think. I hope....

Because I'm a regular visitor, there are not so much posts that I miss. I can only imagine that those e107 members who visit once a month would be totally at loss. Unfortunately one cannot subscribe to a forum (currently only to forum threads)...

Of course one can see all new forum posts, but with an average of over 60 posts a day the new number of posts in a month can be quite overwhelming. I don't know if such a long list of different forum topics would help though... Currently e107 members are already having troubles posting in the right forum. I'm afraid the e107 moderators will get really busy for just moving the threads to the right forum.....

I was hoping that better organization would make it easier to make the decision where to move the posts easier. I could be wrong.

I did produce a lot of separation and I know you would probably hear the echo of keystrokes when posting in some of them because they'd be so rarely used, but I have used a similar format to this on a game site, and it's worked out well. We found that it was easier to consolidate some area's that weren't used as much. That's probably easier than trying to separate area's used for too much though.

Ah, was just an idea, which may lead to something good.....

We appear to be going off topic again but a lot of what you have listed is covered in the wiki - the e107 Handbook

That should be a new users first port of call. If you buy a new car where do you look to see how it works?

The handbook.

Forums are for discussion and support.

Maybe the forum does need reorganising again, but that's a major project as it stands until v0.8 comes out as the thread moving tools aren't there yet in the current code

Oh and BTW, the Wiki is back online thanks to a lot of hard work by steved.

Yes, you're right about going off topic, I went on another tangent, thinking about how it would be useful to have all the plugin communication in one spot. I ended up looking at the BIG picture.

The point was suppose to be why keeping plugins all in one spot would be good for many reasons. And in doing so, there would be better communication for the new to catch up with the established developers.

I feel e107 is a far better design than the few other CMS's I have looked at. Making it easier to "catch-up" on designing plugins and themes with good communication.

I went on to the structure of the forums because I felt this structure of the plugin forums, or part of the e107 forum, if it needs to be kept together, would help me, and others keep organized, as well as know where to post. I thought maximum separation, with the ability to cut back. But maybe this would work well....

e107 PLUGINS
- Plugin Requests
- Plugin Announcements
- Plugin General Q&A
- Specific Plugin Support threads
- Plugin Hacks
- Plugin Tools and Training

Just thinking how I might use it. It takes some guesswrok out of where I should post things though.

On another note. I am wicked glad that the Wiki is back Up. I hadn't really realized how much I was referencing it until I lost it. TY steved!!

@ChicksHateMe, the way it should be done and actually is done with other CMS's is as follows:

1. Create a forum that develops and set standards for plugins and themes
2. Make these standards the de facto norm
3. Certify plugins and themes that adhere to these standards as e107 compliant.
4. Include these plugins in plugins.e107.org
5. Each author must create his own support forum
6. In plugins.e107.org at each page for the specific plugin link back to the author's support forum.
7. Same goes for themes

90% of this work was done and the project died ....

@mygoggie: on the risk of getting off topic again; according to you, what has already been done and what not? And are you saying the plugins.e107.org died? According to the statistics the site is still alive and growing.

@nlstart, points 1-5 were done. Nobody in "management" was interested in consolidating the hard work into point 6 ..... so the project died as did a number of great initiatives.

Every plugin author who uploads to plugins or themes sites has the opportunity to add links for:
- their 'home'
- a demo
- a support area
- a wiki
- a forum
- a bugtracker
- a CVS page (added specifically for Father barry)

How is that not being interested. We can't force people to fill in these fields.

@bugrain, actually you must set a standard for plugins (security, layout etc) and give the plugin an e107 tested and approved rating.

I have no problem FORCING authors to add their own support forum etc. If I as a user see that the plugin has been approved, then I will use it ...

I understand that you are not interested in marketing, and that is fine. I as a user want to know e107 has an interest in the security of my server - core is fine, but plugins needs to be as well - have a look at some of the comments made re plugins that are so insecure it is scary .... and who gets to blame - not the plugin author, but e107 .... So your PR and marketing profile dives 20 fathoms again.

But just who is going to take a plugin apart and check it for holes and poor coding?

The plugin and testing team ... that was the whole idea with e107developers ... to set plugin and theme standards, take the plugin and theme apart and test it and approve it.

It is time that other teams become involved and share responsibility ... there are some very good members here. Use their skills and form pools of expertise that is then channeled to the Mother site which is e107.

The same for security, support, marketing, R&D, etc. All work together and feed back into a respected, loved and promoted CMS.